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Post by Ben Griffiths on May 26, 2016 9:14:22 GMT
A question that came up in a recent discussion I had with another official
On a Try from the B3. A2’s place kick is partially blocked and bounces first at the 1 yd line. It then goes into end zone (but does not touch the ground) where B90 kicks the loose ball out of the back of the end zone.
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Post by oyvind on May 26, 2016 22:33:27 GMT
I think we might call this a "return kick" even though it is kicked the "wrong" way...
That would cause the ball to become dead at that spot.
The Impetus I still from the kick. (touchback)
But the penalty for the Illegal Kick would make it a new Try from the 1.5
This was the thinking of a Backjudge...
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Post by Arnold Buijs on May 27, 2016 9:29:13 GMT
@ Oyvind : I don't think you can call this a ' return kick ' as it simply isn't. It does not go back towards it's original postion = return. It goes further. Therefore it stays "life" and futhermore the illegal kick gives it an new impetus. B90 being responsible for the football going over the end line. That said, Team A will get options to choose from: either decline the panalty & take the safety or accept the penalty and replay @ 1,5y line... So I voted ' something else '
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Post by Endre Breznay on May 27, 2016 9:39:44 GMT
I agree with Arnold
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Post by Ben Griffiths on May 27, 2016 9:50:05 GMT
@ Oyvind : I don't think you can call this a ' return kick ' as it simply isn't. It does not go back towards it's original postion = return. It goes further. On the subject of a return kick... In rugby, if the team in the lead gain possession of the ball when time has expired, they will normally just kick the ball straight of bounds to end the game and get the win. So let's apply the same scenario to American Football.
It's 4th and 40, Team B are leading and there are 2 seconds remaining in the game. Team A punt the ball (!!!). B32 catches the ball at the B18 yard line. B32 sees/knows that time has expired in the game. So he turns around and kicks (punts) the ball out of the back of his own end zone.Is this a Return Kick? And what's the result of the play? |
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Post by Endre Breznay on May 27, 2016 14:30:58 GMT
For me it would be an illegal kick under the rule 2.16.1.b "A legal kick is a punt, drop kick or place kick made according to the rules by a player of Team A before a change of possession. Kicking the ball in any other manner is illegal."
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Post by Bill LeMonnier on May 27, 2016 15:34:25 GMT
There's a difference between an illegal kick and illegal kicking...
An illegal kick is a return kick or a kick made beyond the line of scrimmage... these cause the live ball to become dead.
Illegal kicking of a live ball keeps the play live... a fumble or other loose ball is on the ground, a pass (never seen it) or the holder lose control of the ball prior to a field goal or PAT kick and a player intentionally kicks it... it simply is a foul and a live ball.
If the ball falls off the T and the kicker then kicks it, the dead ball remains a dead ball... hopefully we just shut it down when the ball comes off the T and do a reset.
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Post by oyvind on May 27, 2016 20:43:35 GMT
There's a difference between an illegal kick and illegal kicking... An illegal kick is a return kick or a kick made beyond the line of scrimmage... these cause the live ball to become dead. Illegal kicking of a live ball keeps the play live... a fumble or other loose ball is on the ground, a pass (never seen it) or the holder lose control of the ball prior to a field goal or PAT kick and a player intentionally kicks it... it simply is a foul and a live ball. If the ball falls off the T and the kicker then kicks it, the dead ball remains a dead ball... hopefully we just shut it down when the ball comes off the T and do a reset. aha.. Live ball still live ball when kicked, but a foul. so it would in the first scenario be either safety or replay half the distance A's ball at A-1,5 like Arnold said.
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Post by Laurent Dubreuil (Larry) on May 30, 2016 14:07:57 GMT
That was a great question. I'll admit I had to go back in the rule book and even then, I still was not 100%. But my judgement would've be very similar to Arnold.
Now my reaction would've be to throw my flag and discuss it as a crew since it's a very bizarre/unusual play. I always try to keep crew discussions to minimum for easy fouls and plays (we shouldnt discuss a holding or offside 5 minutes...) but on a bizarre play, I think it's important we discuss it and get it right.
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bojan
New Member
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Post by bojan on May 30, 2016 18:36:03 GMT
In this (theoretical) case I'd prefer to call the contact with the ball accidental rather than intentional, otherwise we'd have some cheap-points on the board
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Post by Arnold Buijs on May 30, 2016 19:31:51 GMT
Agree with Bojan if we can find any reason to not throw a flag by all means...by accident he 'ran into ' the football trying to recover it  |
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Post by Ben Griffiths on May 31, 2016 10:05:38 GMT
The original question was
On a Try from the B3. A2’s place kick is partially blocked and bounces first at the 1 yd line. It then goes into end zone (but does not touch the ground) where B90 kicks the loose ball out of the back of the end zone.The answer we came up with was: First of all what's the result of the play if we disregard all penalties?
To decide between a Touchback and a Safety we have to decide which team is responsible for imparting the impetus that forces the ball across the across the goal line?
It's A2's kick that provides the impetus (8-7-2-a) to force the ball across the goal line. B90's kick impart new impetus (8-7-2-b-1) but by this point the ball has already crossed the goal line.
Therefore disregarding any penalties, the result of this play would be a Touch-back (8-6-1).
But ... we now need to consider the penalty.
Illegally kicking a lose ball is a 10 yard basic spot foul (9-4-4). PSK doesn't apply to this play as it's a try down (10-2-3-b-1) (and that's the key here) so the basic spot is the previous spot (10-2-2-d-4-a). The foul is committed by the team not in possession so the foul is enforced from the basic spot (10-2-2-c-3).
So the penalty is enforced half distance from the B3 to the B1.5 and the try is repeated.
If the same scenario were to occur on a non try down then PSK would apply - enforcing the penalty from the PSK spot would bring up a safety by penalty.
AR 9-4-1:III & IV cover a similar situation except they refer to an illegal bat rather than an illegal kick.This is not a return kick, not because of the direction the ball travels (that's irrelevant), this is illegally kicking a loose ball which is a different foul. On the subject of a return kick... In rugby, if the team in the lead gain possession of the ball when time has expired, they will normally just kick the ball straight of bounds to end the game and get the win. So let's apply the same scenario to American Football.
It's 4th and 40, Team B are leading and there are 2 seconds remaining in the game. Team A punt the ball (!!!). B32 catches the ball at the B18 yard line. B32 sees/knows that time has expired in the game. So he turns around and kicks (punts) the ball out of the back of his own end zone.This is a return kick (2-16-8) because Team Possession has changed during the down. This kick causes the ball to become dead (6-3-10-b), the penalty is 5 yards from the spot of the foul. Under 3-2-3-a-1, the Period is extended for an un-timed down, with B snapping the ball from their own 13 yard line. Presumably B will take a knee - but you never know! That's my take - if you think differently, please feel free to say so! |
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Post by Bryan Currie on May 31, 2016 11:32:48 GMT
Sorry to disagree, but per my reading of 2.16.8 this can't be considered a return kick as team B aren't 'The Team in Possession' after a COP when the kick is made.. hence illegal kick for me and I'm happy with the outcomes and enforcements provided by Ben. Previous spot, the try is replayed after the 10 yd penalty.
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Post by Bryan Currie on May 31, 2016 11:37:21 GMT
Silly me... half distance penalty to the 1.5 yd line on the replay.
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Post by Ben Griffiths on May 31, 2016 12:56:14 GMT
Sorry to disagree, but per my reading of 2.16.8 this can't be considered a return kick as team B aren't 'The Team in Possession' after a COP when the kick is made.. hence illegal kick for me and I'm happy with the outcomes and enforcements provided by Ben. Previous spot, the try is replayed after the 10 yd penalty. By my understanding, In the 2nd scenario, Team A punted the ball away and Team B caught it. Team Possession changes when the B32 gains possession of the ball (2-4-1-b-1), so now Team B has possession of the ball. 2-27-1 makes it clear that Team B will remain as Team B throughout the down, even after possession changes. |
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